Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 S R1 R2 R3 G3 M1 M2 P D1 D2 D3 N3 G1 G2 N1 N2

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From: Shankar (@ 61.1.250.149) on: Mon Jan 19 23:29:56 EST 2004

Can anybody tell the raga of the hindi song Kahin door jab shyam dal jaaye....
From: Raghu (@ 61.95.225.122) on: Wed Jan 21 06:18:27 EST 2004

I guess the distinct shades of chenchurutty is in the lines..
"iha para shapam theeraan..."
and the next line....
Sorry, I am not so good with the swaras..
From: Pradeep (@ 202.54.136.130) on: Wed Jan 21 09:02:22 EST 2004

Raghu,
Thanks for the note..I was trying to compare this song with enveetu thottathil which is also based on chenchurutii and couldnt find any resemblence.

Indrajith,
Is madyma sruti then same as grahabedam?theres one song of ARR in May Matham(Marghazi poove) where he has used Hindolam to actually sing Venkatasera Suprabatham in Sudha Saveri...Is this similar to Aalila
From: Raghu (@ 61.95.225.122) on: Fri Jan 23 00:41:54 EST 2004

en veettu thottathil is chenchurutti ??
isnt it neelaambari ??
From: Pradeep (@ 202.54.136.130) on: Fri Jan 23 02:16:15 EST 2004

Raghu,
The opening swaras for EnVeetu sung by the femala is only in Nilambari..(IMHO)
The whole song is again very similar to "Nada vindu" KavadiChindu which again was taken for a Malayalam Ayappa Song.

Rajesh_Tvm,
I heard Piraye from Pitamagan..it seemed to me that it was in Hamsanaandi..you had mentioed panthuvarali earlier..any comments
From: Indrajith (@ 203.145.157.94) on: Fri Jan 23 02:50:11 EST 2004

Pradeep & whomsoever are interested,
Grahabedam is the process of modifying ragas by shifting the base note Sa or the sruthi to various swara sthanas.Grahabedam is defined for melakartas as well as janya ragas.Consider Dheerasankaraabharanam in C scale. Suppose we continue to use the same swara sthanas but shift the sruthi to D Scale, what was Sankaraabharanam takes on a different appearance.we see that what used to be Chatusruthi Rishabam now becomes Sa and Anthara Gandharam becomes Chatusruthi Rishabam. Continuing along, the Suddha Madhyamam becomes Sadharana Gandharam, Pa becomes Suddha Madhyamam, Chatusruthi Dhaivatham becomes Pa, Kakali Nishadam becomes Chatusruthi Dhaivatham, Sa becomes Kaisika Nishadam. We see that the new swaras correspond to the Kharaharapriya.Thus, moving the sruthi to the swara Ri of Sankaraabharanam results in Kharaharapriya. It should be remembered that the absolute pitch of the swaras continue to be the same; it is only because of the shifting of the origin of the scale (the Sa) that a different raga is produced. Ability of a raga to generate other ragas through Grahabedam is denoted by the term Murchanaakara.For example, if we take the Ni of Sankarabharanam as the base swara.This scale has two Madhyamas and no Panchamam and such a scale is not allowable under the current melakarta scheme. Evidently, for a raga to be Amurchanaakara, all the grahabeda derived scales of it should be somewhat like this. Jhaalavaraali is an example of a melakarta which is an Amurchanaakara ragam.

Grahabedam is necessarily a two way process. Instead of generating Kharaharapriya from Sankaraabharanam, we can start with Kharaharapriya and move the sruthi to the Ni to get Sankaraabharanam.The example just considered leads to the most famous Grahabedam group of melakartas consisting of Mechakalyaani , Dheerasankaraabharanam , Harikaambhoji , Kharaharapriya, Natabhairavi and Hanumathodi.

The Grahabedam process as above can be used on janya ragas also. The most famous Grahabedam group of janya ragas includes Mohanam, Hindolam, Suddha Dhanyaasi, Suddha Saaveri and Madhyamaavathy.

Grahabeda Groups

The following list contains groups of melakartas that are Grahabeda derivable from each other within any group. These are thus Murchanakara melakarta ragas.

Kanakaangi, Kaamavardhani
Rathnaangi, Gamanasrama, Jhankaaradhwani
Gaanamurthy, Visvambari, Shyaamalaangi
Vanaspathy, Maararanjani
Maanavathy, Kaantaamani
Senaavathy, Lataangi, Sooryakaantham
Hanumathodi, Mechakalyaani, Harikaambhoji, Natabhairavi, &
Dheerasankaraabharanam, Kharaharapriya
Dhenuka, Chitraambari, Shanmugapriya, Shoolini
Naatakapriya, Vaachaspathy, Chaarukesi, Gowrimanohari
Kokilapriya, Rishabhapriya
Gaayagapriya, Dhaatuvardhani
Vakulaabharanam, Kosalam, Kiravaani, Hemavathy
Maayaamaalavagowla, Rasigapriya, Simhendhramadhyamam
Chakravaaham, Sarasaangi, Dharmavathy
Haatakaambari, Gavaambhodhi
Varunapriya, Raagavardhani
Naagaanandini, Bhavapriya, Vaagadheeswari
Gaangeyabhooshani, Neetimathy
Chalanaata, Subhapantuvaraali
Shadvidhamaargini, Naasikaabhooshani

The following are Grahabeda related Janya raga groups and hence
it is appropriate to call these Janya ragas as Murchanakara
Janya ragas.

Suddha Saaveri, Suddha Dhanyaasi, Madhyamaavathy, Hindolam and Mohanam
Ghambeera Naata and Bhoopaalam
Kalkata and Lalitha
Naagaswaraavali and Hamsadwani
Aarabi, Mohana Kalyaani, Aabheri and Kedaara Gowla
Dhanyaasi and Saalaka Bhairavi
Aabhogi and Valagi
Kaambhoji and Desiya Thodi
Bilahari and Yadukula Kaambhoji

The swaras of Sudha Saveri are:
Arohanam Sa Ri2 Ma1 Pa Da2 Sa
Avarohanam Sa Da2 Pa Ma1 Ri2 Sa.
The prayogam Sa Ri2 Ri2 in suddha saveri translates to Ga2 Ma1 Ma1 in Hindolam.

We had a big fightout as I claimed that madhayama sruthi is like grahabedham.
You can sing any raga in madhyama sruthi. If you can sing Mayamalavagowla in madhyama sruthi it is not mayamalavagowla basically. We are singing some other raga ( I dont know the name) which on grahabeda on Madhyama sounds like mayamalavagowla.

The reason why we select to sing in madhyama sruthi is that ,The range of these ragas is limited and they are mainly panchamantya, dhaivatantya or Nishadantya, i.e the sancharas do not go beyond these swaras. If sung in the regular panchama sruti, the pitch will sound very low and will have less of an impact. And some ragas are sung in Madhyama sruthis just to add some "flavour" & "effect".

Note: All of the above stuff is not my own. I have done lifting from here and there and tried to compile it in to some useful unit.
From: Indrajith (@ 203.145.157.94) on: Fri Jan 23 02:53:59 EST 2004

Pradeep,
"The whole song is again very similar to "Nada vindu" KavadiChindu which again was taken for a Malayalam Ayappa Song. " I dont understand this. Kavadisindhu has been there in Tamil folks & dramas for a long long time. It is sung in many ragas like senjurutti, Ananda bhairavi.. etc..

Piraye song is in raaga Panthuvarali. I dont see any Hamsanandhi there.
From: Indrajith (@ 202.54.136.130) on: Fri Jan 23 04:27:24 EST 2004

Indrajith,
Thanks for the explanation
and pls pls dont take this as fightout(atleast I have not taken it!),these forums have given me enough knowledge as a learner because of these healthy debates(I am just a beginner).Hope you will take it in the correct sense.

I have heard a song called "Nada Vindu" in Chenchurutit by MS Subhalakshmi which is exactly like En Veetu ..hope this clarifies.

On the Piraye song when I first heard ,it resembled Putham puthu poo from Dalapathi and thats why I felt it to be Hamsanaandi ,will listen to it again.
From: Pradeep (@ 202.54.136.130) on: Fri Jan 23 04:35:51 EST 2004

Indrajith,
sorry its me in the name of Indrajith above!
From: Indrajith (@ 203.145.157.94) on: Fri Jan 23 04:44:08 EST 2004

Haa haaa.. cool cool...
From: Ram (@ 202.144.120.5) on: Fri Jan 23 06:24:19 EST 2004

"Nada vindhu" is not a kavadi chindhu, itz a Thiruppugazh. To say the tune has been lifted froma malayalam ayyappan song would take either height of sureity or carelessness;-)
From: Pradeep (@ 202.54.136.130) on: Fri Jan 23 06:34:51 EST 2004

Ram,
I said malayalam ayappan song had lifted the tune and not vice versa!( I have written for and not from!)
Sorry I mixed kavadi Chindu for Thiruppugazh.Thanks for the clarification.
From: Indrajith (@ 203.145.157.94) on: Fri Jan 23 06:38:20 EST 2004

Pradeep,
It was me who started the misunderstanding.
From: Ram (@ 202.144.120.5) on: Fri Jan 23 06:43:58 EST 2004

oops sorry Pradeep! u were sure and I was careless:-)
From: Pradeep (@ 202.54.136.130) on: Fri Jan 23 06:48:57 EST 2004

Shankar,
Kahin door jab din dal jaaye has got Shankarabaranam notes with PM2PM1G3 notes coming in between.Couldnt fit it into any raga.
From: Indrajith (@ 203.145.157.94) on: Fri Jan 23 07:01:05 EST 2004

Puttham pudhu poo Song is not Hamsanandhi. It is Gamanasrama. You can see traces of panchamam in the song. And Hamsanandhi is a panchama varja derivative of Gamanasrama.
Any comments???
From: purv (@ 198.38.6.253) on: Fri Jan 23 10:06:58 EST 2004

Indrajith,

Hamsanadham, in its pentatonic form is another grahabedham counterpart of Gambheeranatai and Bhoopaalam. Just so you know. YOur list looks pretty good.
:-)

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