Topic started by Madhan (@ 18.104.22.168) on Thu Jan 15 08:58:29 EST 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
Friends, going by the unconventionality of IR's musical creations, in spite of most of them having a certain discernible structure to them, I am wondering if IR's compositions can be interpreted using the fuzzy set theory !
Learned TFMDFers can help initiate interesting insights
- From: Madhan (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Jan 15 09:04:24 EST 2004
During the mid 1980, it was noticed that the fuzzy set theory which was created by the renowned Prof. Lotfi A Zadeh in 1965, is applicable to several kinds of engineering. Furthermore, the invention of the fuzzy IC chip done by Prof. Takeshi Yamakawa in 1987, motivated the world wide fuzzy engineering boom. It fueled the dream for the realization of a fuzzy computer.
That is, the fuzzy computer was thought to play a important role in the implementation of the 6th generation computer, combining the emerging new methodologies and technologies such as neural networks, chaos and genetic algorithms in addition to the traditional symbolic algorithms.
Consequently, the concept of fuzzy computation was introduced and branded as the new engineering method to treat vague ( not probabilistic ) information, e.g., "something a little bit" , "fairly" etc.
The method enabled us to find a new powerful technology of fuzzy reasoning without numerical equations, combining the membership function (which is named and introduced by Prof. Zadeh) and the corresponding vague words.
Furthermore, these kinds of new methodologies helped in imagining the capability of realizing new expert systems more flexible and friendly to humans than those existing during that time, which are mostly based on the symbolic oriented approach.
If such methodologies can be applicable to engineering field that concerns human life, i.e., medicine, health, welfare, and mental feeling and emotion, why not music and that IR's music, that has greatly influenced an entire generation and continuing to do so ?
- From: Giddy boy (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Thu Jan 15 09:28:06 EST 2004
I am dizzy after reading so much fuzzy! *JK*
Madan, interesting, please set the ball uruttufying, give us some direction in this approach.
- From: C~P (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Thu Jan 15 09:40:47 EST 2004
aaarghh!! ... this is so damn confusing man, i dunno wat is required!
what wud u want to interpret and how? ... how are u gonna apply this fuzzy theory to IR's music? ... give us an example..
one question btw....Fuzzy Logic and stuff is applied by the machines. Agents would be the more precise term i guess. I mean, we are talking about Artificial Intelligence here, aren't we? It is for those who cant think but need to find out a best possible solution, that is what AI is! Why do we need to apply it? Don't u think a normal interpretation is better than following a series of steps to work out something. Do u have a feeling that would result in an unbiased view? But even that depends on the way you 'define' things - the different fuzzy functions. So how would this help? Please throw some light on this.
:-) ... thalai suththi vizhaama irunga!
- From: * (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Thu Jan 15 09:43:20 EST 2004
good links CP thanks
- From: C~P (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Jan 15 09:49:22 EST 2004
athil oru suyanilam irukku...ellathayum padichuttu neenga thaan enakku explain pannanum! ;-) ... enakku ellathayum padikkara alavukku porumai illai! ... etho oru basic idea vechchu oatikittu irukkaen! :-)
- From: elaya-raja (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Jan 15 15:27:37 EST 2004
IR will record a song in hours
Use few instruments like violin and thabla - the tabla beat was inevitable in all his songs - no surprise he turned out so many songs.
- From: MusicIsLife (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Jan 15 16:05:54 EST 2004
nee ootharathu ennamo unmai
ne ways coming back to Fuzzy set theory and Logic, the probablistic determination can be done when the final product/output is just a know quantity.. if it has a derivation of n-dimension and n-dimension input.. it is very hard..
- From: Raj (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Thu Jan 15 16:31:05 EST 2004
Do we have to do this on Pongal Day instead of chewing Karumbu? Haven't you seen people debating whether it is this raga or that raga in some other thread? Or whether the MD used violin,viola or cello? Or is it keyboard or piano? At least in deciding the raga people have unknowingly used 'nearest neighbour classification' rule. How about one MD copying an old tune? There is fuzziness in all these.
Enjoy the holidays and chew on more karumbu!!!
CP: Fuzzy logic and AI can wait until you land in NYC,LA or Chicago!
Happy Pongal again!!!
- From: Sada Loosu (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Thu Jan 15 17:07:42 EST 2004
kanam Moderator avargale,
inge Fuzzy, Kuzzy appadi ippadi endru pesi, en ithunoondu moolayai kozhappa muyatchikkum intha samooha viroothihalukku thakka thandanai kodukumaaru thazhmaiyudan vendi kolkiren!
Fuzzy! Fuzzy!! DOWN!! DOWN!!
- From: magi (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Thu Jan 15 18:49:17 EST 2004
It looks like this thread is going to have early infant mortality judging by the kaduppu of the posters, but I wanted to risk a post that may be relevant.
There is a book by Douglas Hofstadter called 'Godel Escher Bach', that talks about similarities between the mathematician Godel's theories, MC Escher's paintings and Bach's music.
The amazon link is below
The book is pretty intense, please dont blame me if you experience hairloss trying to read it.
- From: C~P (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Jan 15 21:04:46 EST 2004
I dont like karumbu, so temme what this is all about!!
oru periya dialogue adichuttu, there is fuzziness in all this-nu sollittu poiteenga! ... Matrix fan-a neenga? ... antha padathula yaaravathu ethaavathu question kaetta, oru kutti bulti adichu oru answer solluvaanga...paartha question-ey thirumba solli iruppanga!! :-)
we still dont know what Madhan expects...enna analysis panna aasai pattaro avaru, avarukku thaan theriyum....i dont know what's the point in this analysis...ungalukku theriyuma?
- From: Kiran (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Jan 15 21:51:34 EST 2004
HELLO ....PLEASE...WHATS THIS ....I DAILY ATLEAST 10 TIMES VISIT TFM PAGE .....I CANT UNDERSTAND THIS MAN ..PLEASE CHANGE BACK TO ENGLISH
- From: curses (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Thu Jan 15 22:10:47 EST 2004
lemme assure u this, If u arent into fuzzy logic and AI, u arent gonna understand it even if it's in English!
- From: * (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Fri Jan 16 03:59:59 EST 2004
---- CP: Fuzzy logic and AI can wait until you land in NYC,LA or Chicago! ----
I strongly second the suggestion with the additional clause that Kupps be made the instructor! :-)
- From: C~P (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Fri Jan 16 13:11:59 EST 2004
Kupps as the instructor??? ... who sed i wanna know abt Fuzzy Logic??! ;-)
- From: Madhan (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Wed Jan 21 12:43:43 EST 2004
OK guys - since the thread has not been active for some time, let me throw in a bit of my input
let us look at IR's music this way - much of IR's music if highly structured, especially the ones which are WCM based - "oh Butterfly" is one classic example - in fact, the way the music progresses brings to my mind the a set of fractals - a fractal itself is a set of transformations. We can also use the term contraction to describe these transformations. Each transformation results in a set of shapes that are smaller than the previous shape, hence the name contraction.
To put it more simply, a contraction is a scaling of an element of a set by a factor , where r is an integer. A set of contractions on the same set is called a contraction mapping. A set of contraction mappings applied in succession is an IFS.
Fractals have dimension, also. But the value of their dimension does not necessarily need to be an integer. This fact is what gives fractals many of their unique properties
Thanks Magi for that pointer/link - since IR has been greatly influenced by Bach, whose music (besides that of Brahms) was highly structured, how much of IR's compositions were linear (like the chords used in "oh butterfly) and were these linear compositions (if I may use the term) fractal in nature ?
[fractal is a geometric figure in which a single motif is repeated at a continuously decreasing scale (``self-similarity''). Its godfather is Benoit B. Mandelbrot. Fractal Theory is the scientific discipline that investigates the nature of fractals and potential application. It is applied in music both as a tool of formalised composition and in sound synthesis]
IR has also given some absolutely mind-boggling non-linear stuff like the interludes of "kanavil midhakkum" from EVK - by what percentage or how much is a given composition of IR nonlinear, that is - given a start/beginning of a composition, musically attuned ears would expect/anticipate a certain line/direction in which the given composition would progress - assuming that such a perceived direction is fractal in nature, how much does the composition actually deviate from the expected direction/course - can this percentage of deviation be quantified using fuzzy logic ??
- From: Raj (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Wed Jan 21 21:37:05 EST 2004
C~P: I did not mean to leave you in a lurch. A plate full of ghee-dripping sarkarai pongal with lot of reisins and cashew nuts along with milagu pongal was waiting at the dinner table. Fuzzy logic was the last thing in my mind. Besides, my teaching days are over. I put away all my technical books and journals to be donated to a needy college. Just to give you a little more...
You remember the first Tirukkural which has a phrase 'aadhi bagavan muthatre ulagu'. Some people think it was probably 'aadhi pagalan muthatre ulagu.' That is understandable. We do not have separate letters for 'ba' and 'pa'. Also, when you 'write' on a palm leaf it is difficult to get the acute angle and the vertical stroke in 'va'. If 'la' is written with a vertical stroke at the end it can be mistaken for 'va'. This vagueness can be seen in handwritten script. How do you decide which letter was actually intended? That is where 'fuzzy logic' is used. It is more useful in reading/interpreting pictographs used in Chinese and Japanese writing. It is trying to identify something with incomplete information.
Anything more than this will invite brickbats (kaduppu as somebody said). I do not think we want to convert this into a technical thread. It probably will die soon!
Madhan: May be, you can initiate some research work in this area to dissect IR music.
- From: outsider (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Jan 22 03:06:51 EST 2004
An interesting question. As I understand it, fuzzy logic is mostly used as a kind of 'self-learning' or 'self-adapting' technique. This would be a better description of Jazz improvising.
I prefer the fractal comparison for IR's composing, like a multi-generating and differentiating emanation, like a tree or a river.
Personally, I think he writes too quickly, but alas.
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