Topic started by Mukund (@ internet-gw1.hea.com) on Tue Mar 10 17:54:59 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
I want all of us to participate in a healthy discussion to come up with reasonable definition of different kinds of music cateogories - thereby shedding more light to unexplored areas of Tamil Film Music as it is becoming more and more "international" :-) by the day. This process is simply to increase the knowledge base.
Cateogories that come to my mind are Carnatic, Western Classical, Jazz, Fusion, Flamenco, New age etc. -- :-) so many terms and so little definition.
As for Carnatic and Western Classical, their foundations lie basically in melody and harmony based approaches to music.
What are the foundations of other kinds of music ?
Are they based on the use of certain kind of instruments ?
Since TFM-DF consists of varied set of people with inclinations towards different musical tastes as well I am hoping a lot of them to contribute for this article
- Old responses
- From: mannAru (@ ns.arraycomm.com)
on: Fri Apr 24 00:23:13 EDT 1998
Thanks for the explanation about the Major and
minor. How are the 3 different minors differ?
Thanks for the explanation to "Punnagai mannan"
- From: Srikanth (@ 140.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net)
on: Fri Apr 24 01:04:14 EDT 1998
Adding to the Major and Minor scales
The Raga sankarabaram has same notes as the Major scale.
Th Raga keeravani has the same notes as a
Basically if the Ga or the E becomes a semi-tone..
(d# or eflat) it becomes a minor chord
(The Ga note is Sivaranji is the ga for minor)
A Simple Rule
For any key you can find the major chords
for eg: taking C major : 1+5+8 (taking eack key on the keyboard as =1 including the black keys)
CEG - is the C major chord
EGC (higher C) - is also C major but called as the first or upper inversion
For Cminor : 1+4+8 here d# or Eflat is played.
FMajor : FAC (1+5+8) starting 1 from F-key...
- From: Kanchana (@ ww-tp03.proxy.aol.com)
on: Fri Apr 24 20:29:45 EDT 1998
Thank you very much for the CM link and your kind offer to send the other CM materials.
My piano example was just to explain the concept of the pattern with whole tones and half tones which is the fundamental definition of the scale (scale derives from the Italian word "sacala" meaning ladder.). As I said before, and as Srikanth has mentioned, any of the twelve tones can be used as the starting key; you progress to construct the scale using the same whole tone-half tone pattern. Therefore, there are twelve major scales.
The scale of C Major is the only one without sharps or flats. If we build the major-scale pattern from D, we get a pattern that includes two sharps. If we build the major scale from G we need to include an F-sharp in order to conform to the whole/half pattern: try building the pattern whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step from G, you will find that F-natural doesn't fit with the pattern.
Hope this sheds more light on your question. :)
In the pure or natural minor scale, the third, sixth and seventh steps are lowered. Due to a severe memory malfunction, I'm unable to recall the patterns of the others. :(
As with the major scales, obviously there are twelve minor keys, and together, they make up the harmonic system of the Classical period.
This has been an extremely interesting discussion so far, and has helped me organize my thoughts around jazz & western classical theory and their applications to TFM; I've also learned much from all of you. Thanks again.
- From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com)
on: Mon Apr 27 13:30:22 EDT 1998
Kanchana and Srikanth: Thanks for the explanations. It did shed some more lights into my question.
Everyone: I still do have another question now. Since piano keys are equally tempered, (meaning the any key is seperated from the next key by a constant ratio of frequency), the 12 Major scales are just tonic shift equivalents of one another.
So it is important to higlight the starting key in melodic piece, to distingiush the scales from one another, right ?
Kanchana: Summa Jazz, Symphony appadinnu intha threadaiyE oru kalakku kalakkitteenga. Thanks.
- From: SRIKANTH (@ 89.minneapolis-07.mn.dial-access.att.net)
on: Mon Apr 27 22:49:05 EDT 1998
Every song is set to a basic scale, in a way carnatic call it as shruthi. MUX -- so you are right starting key is important.
In carnatic the shruthi and raga plays a vital
one can sing a raga on any scale (shruthi)
In Western music
one cannot play a C major chord on a C# minor scale. Also Western music does not have raga instead they give emphasis on chord progression.
In western scale changes are allowed in between a compostion but in carnatic if the shruthi changes in between a song - Subudu and the gang will tear the musician into pieces.
MUX - can you name few tamil film songs which has
scale changes in the score.
- From: vaidy (@ kcpxy3.att.com)
on: Tue Apr 28 14:33:31 EDT 1998
I have a request to kanchana and all:
I was listening to the song "Anandha ragam ketkum kalam", a solo by Uma ramanan from the film "Panneer Pushpangal". The second interlude music is simply mesmerising. I want to knwo how to interpret it so that it can be appreciated better. This song is listed in the following site: http://www.m59.big.ac.at/~grama/songs.html
- From: Mux (@ internet-gw1.hea.com)
on: Tue Apr 28 17:41:57 EDT 1998
You have put it down exactly Srikanth. Thank you. I have seen rendition being out of scale in "ARabi kadaloram". In fact one of my freinds pointed it out to me.
Another example where ragam remains the same the song goes into a different scale is in "Vaanile thenilaa" when Vaanam paadum paadal naanum ketkiren starts singing.
BTW, I would not visiting TFMDF as often in next 2 weeks.
See u guys once in a while.
- From: Rajaraman (@ 188.8.131.52)
on: Tue Apr 28 21:26:21 EDT 1998
ARR has three scale changes to his credit.
arabikkadaloram - bombay ("humma humma" near the
end of the song)
maanaa mathurai - minsaara kanavu ("ooh lalaah laah" near the end, just like the prev song)
vande maatharam theme song - vande maatharam
I don't know if IR or others have done this. Pal?
- From: srikanth (@ 181.minneapolis-06.mn.dial-access.att.net)
on: Tue Apr 28 21:39:46 EDT 1998
Raja has also few ---
Raja kaivcha - in aprova sogothargal (tension in spelling tamil words)
Huma Huma was a very bad scale change, but MANA madhurai was an excellent scale change.
MSV has also few - rajavin parvai raniin pakkam ---
BGMS have scale changes.
- From: Hari (@ ts6-6.slip.uwo.ca)
on: Wed May 6 19:40:12 EDT 1998
Talking of scale changes, one of the most moving ones I know comes from the number composer's breadth in the album Nothing but Wind. This beautiful composition, which features so many raga changes, begins in Hindolam and after about 6 minutes, we come to the refrain:
sa..ni da ma ga ni da ma ga sa ni_ da_ ni_
sa....ga ma dha ni
and then the sa is lowered by a semitone, with all other notes remaining the same. Result: presto! we move to Sunadhavinodhi. Check this out on a keyboard, starting with C# as your sa, initially, and then lower it to C. The result is pure magic!
- From: badri raghavan (@ 184.108.40.206)
on: Thu May 7 02:42:07 EDT 1998
talking of scale changes, one of the most remarkable (yet seldom heard) is in the song
"nenjil kudiyirrukkum anbaraku naan irrukkum" . i am sure most of you would have heard it but listen to it again in the context of scale variation.
i shall compile a list of songs (recent and not so) where there is a scale variation and post it shortly.
- From: Udhaya (@ )
on: Wed Feb 24 19:35:07 EST 1999
Another worthy revival.
- From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com)
on: Wed Feb 24 20:52:44 EST 1999
Where is the sruthi change in "KaNNil...". ?You are referring to the "Irumbuthirai" song right ? There is a change in Raaga, the pallavi and first stanza are in Shanmugapriya and the second I think is in Kalyani.
IR did it right in his early days, "Devan thiruchabai malargaLe". MSV did it in "Rajavin
Paarvai" (Anbe vaa), "Sorgam pakkathil" (Enga mama) and "Nallathoru kudumbam" (thangappathakkam).
- From: cram (@ 220.127.116.11)
on: Thu Feb 25 06:27:48 EST 1999
shabash, udhaya. great work.
i don't know if it has been discussed here before (old responses go back too far, i gave up), but i would like to discuss the influence of the blues on tamil film music. of course, we can only discuss songs of the 50s and the 60s, as other influences began dominating later on.
- From: vijay (@ 18.104.22.168)
on: Thu Feb 25 11:24:10 EST 1999
do u know which movie 'devan thiruchabai malargale' is from?
- From: Ragapriyan (@ 22.214.171.124)
on: Fri Feb 26 01:34:33 EST 1999
`avar enakkE sondham` is the movie. It has
another excellent PS song which is not so
well-known.. thEnil aadum rOjaa, poonthendral
This is a great thread. Thanks for reviving it.
I hope some experts like Hari, Shashi and others
step-in and join with Sriram and others.
- From: Ragapriyan (@ 126.96.36.199)
on: Sun Feb 28 21:50:16 EST 1999
About the nenjil kudiyirukkum song..
The song begins with the female voice (PLeela, I
think). Then when she completes the pallavi and
TMS starts..., where the words are different,
one does get the distinct feeling that whatever
Leela sang in the pallavi has been elevated up in
pitch by TMS, forming a parallel scale. I think
that's what Badri was talking of as scale change.
If, for a moment you imagine Leela herself singing
the whole song, you will appreciate what I am
trying to say, in a better way.
- From: sree (@ tarka.cs.concordia.ca)
on: Fri Jun 11 13:27:14 EDT 1999
Srikanth, MUX, Kanchana.....:
Expecting more from you all ....
- From: prakash (@ )
on: Fri Dec 15 15:31:23 EST 2000
anothern revival for this superlative thread.where is this kanchana madam-is she posting now in a different name.
ippovum discussion appadinnuttu edha pannittu irukkom.
please, please go thru this entire thread.
yaan petra inbam peruga ivvaiyagam.
when old dfers say they have stopped posting- beleive them.
nowadays we really sound like kathukkutties.
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